I figure I'll do this in the comments, so if I get ahead of you, it'll be easy for you to stop reading.
EPISODE ONE:
I started off very disappointed with the idea that all the old characters were being turfed out to bring in a whole new cast. Chapman was the character I found least interesting in season 1. Plus, it would mean leaving a bunch of plot threads hanging. Since it looks like that's not happening, I think starting with a new location and new characters is a good thing.
Thankfully, Larry and the brother weren't in this episode. They annoyed me last time.
I also realised there's a lot I don't remember from last season. Did we see Chapman as a kid? Was it the same actress? I don't remember this kid. What happened to Chapman's mates at the end of last season? The girl who was saving herself for her boyfriend? Her lover? Janeway/Red?
The outcome with Chapman and Alex's testimonies -- I saw that coming as soon as they started discussing it in the van, but I'm still interested to see what it will mean long term.
Brilliant. Loved it. So much came flooding back once I started seeing all the old faces again. By the end, I was thinking that if I had to pick, I'd rather see a show about these people than have a show about Chapman and Alex without them in it. It's going to be hard letting any of them go, which will no doubt be inevitable. Good. That's as it should be.
Larry wasn't super annoying; however, a) Did that baby look three months old? and b) Did best friend look like someone with a three-month-old? Maybe I'm just cynical.
I really appreciated the intro this time around. After seeing all the old characters again in the last episode, after missing them in the first. I feel a connection to all those eyes and mouths now.
I don't know what to say about this one. If I was going to talk about what I liked about it, I'd just be describing the whole episode. It was consistently good. I did like seeing Crazy Eyes as a kid. Also how good are the kid actors they're getting in? And the likenesses? I especially liked the young Taystee in the previous episode.
Speaking of the previous episode, did I ever mention the sheila I knew who taught her dog the peanut-butter trick in real life? I did, didn't I?
Chapman might start to grow on me if she keeps going the way she's going. I'm interested to see what happens with her and Alex, and her and Doggett. If Doggett's gang turn on her, could she and Chapman end up as bedfellows? (not literally, I don't think)
Also, Soso: continuing character, or plot device? And where are things going with the female guard? I see potential with her. Something to do with Larry and the journalist, maybe?
Probably my favourite so far. I liked Morello's back story, but wished there was more with Lorna at the hospital. The Brooke/Boo thing was the least interesting part of it, for me, but I suppose it was worth it to so Chapman twist and harden just a little bit more. Maybe I'll really start to like her at some point.
I'm actually enjoying the relationship developing between Larry and best friend girl.
What was the story with Janeway's mate getting burned? I feel like it's something I should remember from last season, but I'm drawing a blank.
And I couldn't help but roll my eyes at the female anatomy subplot. I suppose though, that there are a lot of people who never learn that stuff. It's probably worse in the bible-thumping U.S. than it is here, too.
So, last season I got a bit of a vibe about female inmates versus the predatory male correctional workers. Now, I think they're shifting the dynamic a bit, by positioning Fig as the apex villain. So far, she seems like a very un-complex character. All the boxes ticked for someone we should hate. I don't know how I feel about her yet. I'm interested to see if and how they flesh her out.
Also, the fuck-off between Nichols and Boo. Does it seem like a particularly, I dunno, "blokey" thing to do? I mean, "blokey" as in, more how you'd write male characters? I dunno. Does it feel like there's a bit of a shift in the underpinnings of the structure here? Ah, fucked if I know. Maybe I'm imagining things.
It was still good.
What's going to happen to Chapman on the outside? I hope they don't undo what's been building this season. Not now. It's too early. And she shouldn't just go back to what she was, either way.
We watched Ep 4 tonight (and 5 I think, losing track.) I also liked Morello's back story. Well done. I also reckon something's going to happen with Larry and Polly (hah, ONE name I remember. I can't believe how good you are at remembering all the names.) I thought the female anatomy thing was good because *lots* of girls/women don't know it, they really don't, and because I'd never seen that talked about on a show or in public in that way (other than in our sex ed classes) I was almost cheering. Oh fuck, I was cheering.
Janeway? That's Red? She set the kitchen on fire something to do with something last season. Yeah, I don't remember much either.
*
EP 3: Agree about the child actors, they are so good and so like the characters. Seeing Suzanne's backstory, so sad. Man. The peanut butter trick, you may have mentioned it but I've heard about it before. I'm just glad they didn't show that and that Boo decided not to go there. I couldn't understand why she had a dog in there in the first place. Soso I don't know. I think she's just meant to be a Chapman type, ie newbie, there have been a few symmetrical things going on. The female guard, the young one or the old one?
Who's Doggett?
EPS 1 and 2. With one we were kind of shrieking going 'what the fuck's happening!' I just loved it. So disorientating but at the back of my mind I was missing the others. So when Ep 2 we were back with them I was really relieved. Like you said, so many faces and stories. LOVE IT.
The baby didn't look 3 months old but in Ep 4 she told the lady on the street it was 10 weeks. Ok, I guess that's almost 3 months. I dunno.
I saw Alex was going to betray Chapman as well, saw it coming a mile off and I thought it was good they did that. Nice double twist cause you think Chapman is going to tell the truth. But what a cow. Wow.
I love the way Chapman has hardened and she wasn't scared of Red when she was forced to move into her room. Do not like Tastee's 'foster' mum - talk about bad news and it's strange but she just hasn't aged, in fact she looks like she's gotten younger. Don't want her to fuck up Suzanne. I love Suzanne.
We seem to be watching a couple of eps every night.
I find it disturbing that in a country like this, in this day and age, that many women would go through life not knowing basic things about their own bodies. You do valuable work, my friend.
Wasn't Boo's dog a guide-dog puppy or something? They don't start training them 'til they're a year or something, but they still need constant companionship so they get used to being totally bonded to a person. Or something. I don't remember exactly how it goes. Maybe it was some other sort of helper dog or something.
Yes, Janeway is Red's character from Star Trek. I'm just so used to thinking of her like that. Now that you've jogged my memory, I vaguely remember her sabotaging the kitchen when the latinas took over.
Maybe Soso's primary function at the moment is to show us how far Chapman has come. But I feel she's going to be important later on when she also hardens up. Either at the end of this season or further down the track.
The younger female officer (Fischer?) is the one whom I think will be the most crucial to the plot. And it looks like Cabuto is being repositioned as a more sympathetic character. The older woman and the fat bloke, I'd be surprised if they get substantially utilised any time soon.
Doggett is the one with new teeth, whom Chapman fought at the end of last season. Although, she seems to be getting called "Pensatucky" now. I think it was one of my predictions from last season that Doggett's gang would turn on her after she lost, and she would either have a final showdown with Chapman or they would form some sort of bond. So far, so good.
I think Vee is shaping up to be the new big-bad inmate. But she will be a completely different foe to Doggett. Much more cerebral and cunning instead of batshit insane. And she won't just be Chapman's problem. Now that we care so much about all the characters, the stakes are much higher. There'll need to be a price. I think it might be Red. And yes, it seems they completely gave up on trying to age her realistically.
I didn't think Chapman would tell the truth in court. That one played out exactly like I thought it would. What will be interesting is seeing their next meeting. On the outside? Will Alex come to visit? I can't see them leaving her out of the show for too long.
I have been managing 3 episodes a night, but I have rellies arriving tomorrow and staying for nearly a week. That might slow things down considerably.
I think it's a sign of good story-telling when you can feel many different things, both positive and negative, for the same character at the same time. Cabuto, Doggett and Healy, Larry and Polly.
I think Poussey is probably the best acted character. The performance seems very natural and sincere to me.
I hope something substantial grows between Morello and Suzanne. They deserve each other. Though Vee would obviously not be happy about it.
Red's plan can only result in her leaving the show. I can't see how she won't end up in Maximum security.
What have I missed between Morello and Suzanne? Suzanne is Crazy Eye right? And Morello is the stalky veil wearer, right?
Poussey is great, really feel for her.
Ah Doggett, yes my daughter reckons she'll team up with or try to be friends with Chapman and her friends. She's so funny the way she's smiling all the time. What a great character, and the actress, I saw her in 8 Mile (Eminem movie) - you should watch it if you haven't. It's really good and she is good in it. Talk about a transformation...
Yes, Boo's dog was a trainee guide dog or something but why was she allowed to have him in the prison. To me that was a bit unrealistic.
Yes, Morello and Suzanne are those two. They shared a moment at the Valentine's Day party. I thought (more like hoped, really) it might grow into something more. They both have psych issues that double as a vulnerability and an armour.
As for Boo and the dog; by coincidence, I was watching Landline or something on NITV or something a couple of weeks ago, and they had a story on an eagle breeding (or recovery (don't remember the details)) program that was running through one of the prisons here in AUS. The scientist/wildlife-worker in charge was happy because the inmates didn't need to be paid and the inmates were happy because it gave them something productive to do. I think some local film-maker had just made a movie or something about it too; no doubt full of symbolism about leaving a cage and flying free. I've heard about those sorts of things before, so it didn't strike me as too unrealistic. It is a low security prison, after all.
I'll keep 8 Mile on my radar. I've been in a room when it was on the telly but didn't really watch it. I've never cared for Eminem, so didn't give it much of a chance. That was a long time ago, though.
I had a look back at our old OITNB discussion, over at your joint. I couldn't find the Doggett predictions, so I either made them elsewhere, or didn't make them at all. Actual predictions were: • Chapman hardens up considerably. • Chapman takes a newbie under her wing. • Chapman gets her sentence extended, and/or goes to maximum security. • Prison bureaucracy becomes more of a factor. • Main characters get bumped off. My money says Doggit, Red, Morello and Alex are prime candidates. Of course, it might also depend on which actors decide they want to leave the show.
Well, Chapman has hardened up and she did sort of take on a newbie, though to a much lesser extent than what I'd imagined. Alex hasn't been bumped off, but she has been largely written out of the first half. At this point, I still see something bad happening to Red.
Looking back, I also realise how much it added having Jo's contribution to the discussion. Maybe it would've been better to do this at yours?
I can start a thread there, not sure if she's watching or knows it's on. Did I announce that on mine or yours?
I do remember you saying your thoughts about Chapman hardening up and taking on a newbie. Maybe it's elsewhere on another post. It worries me that you think bad things are coming for Red. I really feel for her and like her and am rooting for her.
And yes the max security. Somehow I don't think that's the last time we see those dude including that sleazy black guy. What was the line Chapman said? When they were 'negotiating' him getting a note to Alex? Where she offered a hand job and he said he preferred to be more active than that, or something. And she said something like: I don't think there's enough privacy here for you to sexually assault me' or something. Do you remember that?
I don't think we've even mentioned the new series at your place. We could either move the discussion there, or let her know we're discussing it here. Either way. Assuming she's interested.
I like Red too, but I have a feeling about her story arc moving towards something conclusive. Maybe she will go to max and then come back in a later season. Her relationship with her sons makes me smile. If she goes, I will miss her.
I remember Chapman offering to wank that bloke off and he says something like "I'm a predator, it's no fun for me if you offer." and yes, she snaps back with something like "Well, I don't think there's enough privacy here for you to violently assault me." Foreshadowing, maybe?
Actually, remember that Chapman's last roomie (the voodoo woman, Ms or Madam something) was sent to max. If Red goes to max, there might be a thing about nobody wanting to be bunked with her because it's a trend?
Maybe we'll get a parallel storyline about Red and the voodoo woman in max?
I knew by the way they were building up the furlough, that something would go wrong. What they did was probably the best option in the end.
The scene with Fischer and Nichols was good too. Maybe I was completely wrong about Fischer. But then, why bother with all the set-up of her listening to the phone calls in Spanish and learning about the pregnancy? It seems like a weird fucking place to leave that.
But then, with the return of Pornstache, who knows what direction this is going? I'm actually not too glad to see him back. I think I had just the right amount of him last time. Was happy to see him go.
Ok we watched Ep 6 tonight, the Valentine's Day one, so I can't read your other comments. Will catch up over weekend I reckon. I'm out tomorrow night. And P is out Sat night. So might be a while actually. And then final GoT on Monday night, I am so obsessed with it.
Episode 6 was interesting. Yes, I thought Suzanne was so sweet with Morello. And I really felt for Poussey what a storyline. Great father though, good on him. I wonder what she ended up doing to get in prison. Such a surprise to see her speaking German, pretty amazing. I swear, the show is really surprising in lots of ways. And the dude with the Russian wife, I'm feeling sorry for him again now, even though he was such a prick towards end of last season. Can't stand Vee and what she's playing at. Funny seeing all the guards at the bar, the way they were reacting to each other in civvies. All very compelling.
Chapman is really growing on me. I even liked her brother in this one.
All of a sudden Red's future doesn't seem so bleak to me. I see new potential. But that tunnel has to be discovered sooner or later, and someone will have to take the fall for it. Will it end up being Vee? That'd be fitting, given what we saw this episode. Maybe she'll end up reunited with Rhonda. Maybe she's just in the show for this season. I wonder.
Pornstache's role may have shifted a little. Good. I didn't really want more of the same.
What are the chances of Healy and Doggett's relationship turning into an affair?
I think I'd like to see more of Gina (the burned one). She needs some development.
At this point, I'm realising that they could kill Alex off at some point and still keep her as a main character in flashbacks.
Nichols does a pretty good Alex impression, too, no?
And the Pornstache/Dia/Hoppy triangle; brilliantly done. Amazed that I was happy to see him go, sad to see him return, and in just a couple of episodes, I don't want to lose him again. He's still a bad guy, but now he's a bad guy with new interesting dimensions. Hat's off to the story-teller.
And speaking of bad, what was your reaction to Crazy Eyes' heel turn?
And when you say you don't like Vee, you mean you don't like how she behaves, or you don't even like her as an antagonist? I think she's a pretty good villain. I find myself trying to work out at what points I would have let her get to me and just started swinging. I just wouldn't have gotten pissed first.
And since the previous episode, I find myself feeling something of an affinity for the Golden Girls now. I sort of imagine that they would maybe almost be like us if we were in prison. Hmmm, maybe there's an idea for a sketch in there somewhere...
Well, how are they going to wrap all this up in one episode.
You reckon something will happen to put the kibosh on the transfer. Wouldn't it be good to see Fig as an inmate? It's almost like we're seeing her origin story play out in real time, eh?
I reckon Doggett had the best scenes in this one. Discovering and joining the lesbian conspiracy. Her appraisal of men made me laugh. "I like how they smell funky, and they're all big and have dicks and stuff."
And Red. I had that feeling of foreboding since the end of last season and it had almost completely gone away. And then ...
I can't stop talking about it. And I can't stop going back and watching it.
We've got a serial bank robber who's just escaped from gaol, and she's speeding away, presumably to die in a police chase, after just killing someone for doing something to her that was relatively minor; and I feel so good about it.
I think the discussion on grammar was my favourite bit. I don’t remember that. I miss so much of the dialogue, which is why I need to watch things with subtitles. Will rewatch S1 and S2 on DVD to catch up in that regards
The humanizing of Fig, yes did not see that coming either. Nicely done. And what was the line when she unzipped Caputo and saw his dick and he says something like ‘yeah, they called me Coke can in high school’ – a choad I guess? Yuck.
Sun vs Moon convo? Don’t remember.
Me too on Rosa’s story
Agree re furlough. It was well done.
When Pornstache walked in I was shouting, i found it really dramatic and wow. But Im glad he’s gone quickly cause I agree with you, I did have my fill of him last season.
EP 9 Is this when she had her furlough? I really enjoyed those scenes. Out of the prison.
Which one is Rhonda?
Your question re Healy and Doggett: I had similar queasy thought myself. I just don’t trust him after he betrayed Chapman end of last season. Even though I feel sorry for him and have empathy for him with the Safe Talk scenes etc, but there’s a later scene where Doggett touches him and he gets very scary, I was expecting her to hug him (cause she was being sweet and sincere and supportive) and for him to belt her. I was scared for her. Doggett has become a much more empathetic character this season, which is interesting.
EP 10 On killing Alex off, possibly, but I suspect (now that I’ve finished the whole season) something else on that. I’ll put it in last comment
Pornstache/Dia/Hoppy – yes, really well done, I do hope P is back but just a little. But in some kind of mental way
Crazy Eyes’ ‘heel turn’ she’s just completely manipulated by Vee which plays out over next few eps
Vee is an excellent antagonist but I suppose i didn’t like her changing everything (I know there has to be change, and conflict and the best way of doing that was have the set up in Season one and then we are comfortable with the characters and like most of them, then have someone come in and fuck everyone over.) Also I found her an awful person (which means good character building) and there’s one scene coming up which was particularly reprehensible. I suppose she was a villain through and through, absolutely no redeeming features (which in a way is unrealistic, intellectually I have to think that even the worst people have some things to recommend them? It’s a big statement and a big question. Something I’m still trying to work out. I just don’t think good/bad is a really binary thing. I’m sure we’ve talked about this before?)
With Vee, I would have been completely intimidated. In prison, I would need a wife for sure. I’d probably be unable to fight off Boo, assuming of course she’d be interested in me!)
Yes the Golden Girls. I’d be the one with the long grey hair who does something pretty rad in an upcoming episode. When you say sketch do you mean drawing? Can you do one of me??
EP 11 What? about cartoon panels, what? Poussey is fucking awesome, or the actress is, or both.
Pete the Aussie, far out. He’s like a joke character, they are laughing at us.
Menses madness – missed that. I already use it, though not in those terms. I get rage occasionally and there is a type of insanity that manifests with me being hypercritical of people closest to me (read Clokes and his kids, my mother, my sister) and sometimes wanting to shout and hit.
Yes golden girls pretty hardcore, liked that. everyone treats them like they are invisible and nothing, but people forget that older people have lived. I am noticing a lot of ageism as I get older. There’s the invisibility, the talk about old equating it with bad. I reckon old is awesome but unfortunately the only way young people will get it is once they are old and the cycle continues
If I’d answered this before knowing what happens, I would have said prison transfer might happen, and they split the cast and start new elsewhere. But now I know it’s not happening. It was just a threat thrown in. To confirm: it was about the magazine Chapman was putting out? Was it everyone working on it with her that was on the transfer list?
Ep 12 I knew once Red didn’t kill Vee that she would get hit back. I thought she would get killed, thankfully she didn’t. What do you think about the actress who plays, Red I think she’s amazing looking. I love the way she does her hair and makeup, esp eye makeup. I’m gonna play around with some eye lines like she does.
I missed a lot of the Doggett dialogue, my daughter had to keep pausing and translating for me. Poor kid. Especially when it was all the innuendo about going down on women etc.
Ep13 Fucking amazing last episode. It was really really great. Agree with you about Rosa, I really came to care about her, kept worrying she’d die on us. During the sleepover in the storm, in the back of the van etc. And yes, swerving to get Vee we cheered (although I’d been worried about the nuns at the gate. Loved the nun bits too, also the sister telling Red she masturbated to a picture of Christ ‘who was pretty ripped, he was my go-to guy’ also Red talking about sex. This show has really gone to places other shows haven’t, to dismantle stereotypes, don’t you think? But not in a simplistic or tokenistic way. Showing older women talking about sex, showing lesbian love and not just sex but a real connection between Alex and Chapman.
See, this is what I think: now that Larry has been a douche as has the best friend Polly (?) Chapman and Alex I think are the real deal. My daughter says she reckons Chapman was only with Larry to be ‘doing the conventional thing’ that really she is gay and really she loved Alex. Her feelings for her had to be strong enough to make her cheat on Larry, also to lie for her in court. Either Alex will end back in prison or next season will be about the threats to her on the outside and being drawn back into the drug world.
I think Nicky and the heroin will be an ongoing temptation for her. I was so worried she’d crack but then she told Red. It’s always going to be there for her, as a temptation. The way she talked about it during that AA-type scene. So poetically and lovingly.
The other thing I love about this show is the racial stuff and that they go there. I can’t think of another show (which also has white lead characters) that will have scenes, extended and integral scenes, of black women talking to each other about stuff other than men (are you familiar with the Bechdel test? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test) I have seen articles though that are critical, and asking questions like ‘Is OITNB racist?’ I didn’t read them cause didn’t want spoilers but will look up and put links here. What do you think? I have to say there’ve been a couple of times when all the black girls are talking in their ‘jivey way’ (sorry for dated and possibly offensive term) and it’s like they are not being very smart. It’s like Vee is the ‘smart’ one and they are vulnerable to exploitation and manipulation because they are dumb. Apart from Poussey, but we’ve seen her background. Middle class, educated, strong father figure etc etc. She was the only one to stand up to Vee and got outcast for it, but apart from her the others all seem not too cluey. Now this could be a comment on the types who get into crime and go to prison, and there are plenty of other groups there, and it’s clear that in the US blacks are overrepresented in prisons. What do you think about that?
I was also moved by the way the guy with the face tatts, visiting one of the kitchen women with their child, was smiling and happy when she wasn’t being transferred. He hadn’t smiled once during their visits, in fact I thought he was going to attack her or do something to the kid he seemed so violently unhappy and tense.
Was the Highlander book the same one as the movie, with Christopher Lambert? I really liked the movie when I saw it in the ‘80s. It does not hold up however.
There’s also an article floating around about books in OITNB. I’m not sure whether it’s realistic or not to have people reading so much in prison but maybe it is. It would be the best way of escaping I reckon. I’ll try to find that article as well.
To finish, I worry for Suzanne. We were made to care about her, and she is so fragile and vulnerable. Fucking Vee for using her like that. Oh, and I forgot to mention the scene that I found the most horrible: Vee's seduction of the man she'd raised as her son (and used in a Dickensian way in her bad dealings) and then her easy betrayal of him. So of course, using Crazy Eyes was easy for her. Glad she got smashed by Rosa in the van. Fucking bitch.
Sorry it took me so long to catch up with the comments, we finished watching it last night. I'll go back and rewatch first 2 seasons before next one. Pretty sure there's lots more in this show than I see the first or even second time.
The grammar discussion was when Daya and Flaca were arguing over the phrase "I could care less".
I know what you mean about subtitles. I have them on for just about anything I can get them for now. I think part of the problem is that these days, they mix audio with the assumption that everyone has an insulated private theatre with a kick-arse surround sound system they can crank up without the neighbours showing up with torches and pitchforks. Most annoying.
If I remember right, Caputo says his nickname was "beer can". You know, I've heard the term "choad" on American shows, but I still don't know what it means. Care to enlighten, please?
The sun/moon thing was when Chapman told Larry that he was reflecting other people's light, like the moon; and he replied that it was natural she thought that, because she sees herself as the sun at the centre of the universe with everyone else orbiting around her. I thought it was a beautifully descriptive metaphor.
EP 9:
Yes, the furlough was the start of me really growing fond of Chapman's brother and his missus. Up until that time, I just found them annoying. Chapman herself really grew on me here, too. We start to see that she's already too far gone to ever go back to "how things were".
I wonder what'll become of that loose end with Chapman lying to Red about the family business?
In the flashbacks, Rhonda was the one that Vee betrayed and had sent to maximum security so that she could take over the blacks. I thought Vee might end up in max herself, and Rhonda would be there to greet her.
After what happened at the end of season 1, I guessed that they would either have Doggett go full feral and then finish up with her permanently, or reform her into an sympathetic character. I'm glad they did what they did. I think it's been far more interesting. But Healy is miserable at home and work, and he has precisely one person in his life showing him affection, and we all know what he's capable of. I think at some point there's going to be a final straw for Healy. Maybe his wife will get her green card and leave him. Depending on where things are positioned at that time, things could go quite badly for Doggett. Especially if they start something and then she tries to blackmail him.
EP 10:
Pornstache/Dia/Hoppy – yes, really well done, I do hope P is back but just a little. But in some kind of mental way
In this context, "P" is Pornstache, right? If so, yes, agreed.
I don't see Boo as being that threatening. She's big enough that no-one fucks with her, but I don't often see her using it to intimidate others. Although ... did she menace Chapman early in season 1? It's like there's something on the tip of my memory ... I can't believe how much I've forgotten.
I think Vee was a psychopath; and if that's the case, it's not a matter of good or evil, but a simple, clinical, lack of empathy. And while I don't think that it's so much unrealistic, per see, I suppose the question is whether a character like that adds to this type of human drama, or if it comes of as simplistic and ham-handed. Maybe it's a matter of execution over content?
Yes, I had a thought about doing a drawing of you and me as characters, but it's not much of a clique with just two. And I'd need reference picks. And then there's the fact that I haven't actually drawn anything in months. Which sucks.
Daya's little cartoon strip she did for the prison newsletter, the dialogue balloons are ordered right-to-left for no reason at all that I can see.
I think you're right about Pete being a joke character. I suppose his one redeeming feature is that he's not a yank doing a crap Aussie accent (as far as I can tell). Do you reckon there's more Aussie characters in American stuff now? Is it because there's so many high-profile Aussie actors around? I can remember when we were desperately trying to claim Russel Crowe and Lucy Lawless as our own. That reminds me, I recently heard that Xena is in some show about the Roman Empire that started out apeing GoT, but is now very decent in its own right. Have you seen or heard of it? I might check it out later in the year, when I feel like watching telly again.
I don't know if it's a type of reverse-ageism, but I find myself getting more cynical and gruff around younger people as I get older. Especially when they're like, "Oh, such-and-such is the most talented musician in the history of the world!", and three years later it's like they never fuckin' existed; or when they talk about discovering things from the fuckin' 1990s like they were uncovering some sort of fossilised artifacts from a prehistoric era. Yes, people don't realise that older folks have lived, and have a much broader perspective of history, but they also seem to be ignorant of their own ignorance -- which is probably the most frustrating part of it. And then there's the entertainment/fashion industry, which just seems to be this little insulating bubble, built around and on top of that ignorance. Fuck, I'm starting to rant now ... hmmm ... menses madness!!
I think the transfer was because Fig found out Chapman was getting visits from that reporter, and the others were on the list randomly, because she didn't want it too look like she was singling Chapman out. I don't think we ever find out who most of the others on the list even were. In the end, it didn't matter.
EP 12:
What do you think about the actress who plays Red?
Captain Janeway? I like her as an actress, even though I don't think her Rusky accent is 100% convincing. To start with, I was quite taken aback by how much she'd aged/gained weight since Star Trek, but I'm used to it now. I would have been sad to see her go, even though I think it could have been a powerful story element if they'd bumped her off. To be honest, I hadn't give a tremendous amount of thought to her makeup, but now that you mention it ... I don't wear any myself. My mother put me off it when I was a kid and I never recovered. But if you reckon you can do something with it, I say go for it.
The Doggett exchanges, both with Healy and Boo were great. I'd be tempted to go back and re-watch just for them, if you missed them.
Yes, I think Chapman probably did really love Alex, but I'm not so sure about how reciprocal it was. Which is to say, I'm not sure Alex is capable of loving someone in that way. She seems really selfish and manipulative to me. Maybe that's why it will work out, what with Chapman also being so self-centred and narcissistic; but honestly, I don't see any "proper" relationship forming between them that isn't based around travel and adventure. And how that's going to happen without drug money, I don't know.
And as for cheating on Larry, if I remember correctly, that happened after Chapman was traumatised by her time in SHU, so I don't know to what degree "strong feelings" were a factor there.
I am very familiar with the Bechdel Test, although, until I looked it up, I wouldn't have been able to tell you what it was called. You're right though, that I probably haven't seen too many shows that mix black and white main characters in the way they're mixed here.
I read those articles thinking they would all be about how racist the depictions of ethnic stereotypes in the show are, and blah-de-blah, intellectual outrage, etc, etc; but they weren't really. So, I don't really know how to respond to the articles, but I'll try responding to your questions instead:
What do you think? I have to say there’ve been a couple of times when all the black girls are talking in their ‘jivey way’ (sorry for dated and possibly offensive term) and it’s like they are not being very smart. It’s like Vee is the ‘smart’ one and they are vulnerable to exploitation and manipulation because they are dumb. Apart from Poussey, but we’ve seen her background. Middle class, educated, strong father figure etc etc. She was the only one to stand up to Vee and got outcast for it, but apart from her the others all seem not too cluey.
To start with, I think there might be an element of cultural perspective here. When the black girls are doing their "jivey talk", they're often loud and animated, and maybe sometimes there's a tendency to equate that with being stupid and juvenile. I've got a big family that spans a few cultural backgrounds, as well as educational and economic levels (yes, all the way from dirt poor to working class); and I know that when I'm with different groups of rellies, the way people talk varies quite a bit. And while that can represent a difference in the level of education, it doesn't always, and, while being uneducated does often makes people ignorant about certain things, it doesn't necessarily make them dumb.
So, my first question would be: Are they inexplicably dumber than other characters on the show? Obviously, you can't count Suzanne, because she's got mental health issues. I'd say that Cindy seems a bit thick, and, well, a bit of a cunt too really. So that leaves Poussey, Taystee, and Watson, whom I would argue have all been depicted as quite intelligent. Taystee obviously has long standing issues with Vee as a mother figure and with an uncontrollable desire to be accepted. We also see that Watson's experiences (including multiple trips to SHU) appear to be making her bitter and fatalistic (Again, the first thing Chapman did after going to SHU was fuck a woman whom she was still upset with for fingering her to authorities). You've already mentioned Poussey, and I think Vee explicitly made an example of her to keep Watson and Taystee in line. And of course, neither of them have the knowledge we do as the audience. So, you've got these two girls who are chuffed to be in the group at the top of the heap, afraid to rock the boat because they've seen what can happen, and they're talking in their jivey way, and Cindy is legitimately saying dumb shit and Crazy Eyes is being Crazy Eyes, and maybe a part of you is expecting to see black characters written poorly, and maybe that all adds up to something ...? Or maybe there is actually something more there and I just missed it.
On the other hand, I would argue that the characters who seem the dumbest are the hick meth girls, who are all white. Also, Morello doesn't seem that bright to me, but then she's comparatively quiet, so maybe that works in her favour. Boo is cunning, but I don't know if that equates to intelligent. At any rate, she doesn't seem to be much of a long-term thinker. Sometimes I question the intelligence of Chapman and her friends and family on the outside, despite the fact that they're all obviously well educated. Don't get me started on fuckin' Aussie Pete.
Interestingly, all those articles seemed to share my general dislike of Chapman in season 1, and one of them talked about how you can't sell a show idea without having a "pretty", "white", "middle-class" "normal" as a vehicle for the audience. And this got me thinking. There's now more non-whites in The States than whites, and the fucking atrocious economic policies they have are causing a collapse in the economic strata; so, is it just a matter of time until we see a change in story conventions, based purely on audience demographics? Of course, most of the writers, executives, etc will probably remain wealthy, white, Christians/Jews, but at the end of the day, they've got to make something that appeals to the masses, right?
But yes, I agree that the show has gone to some interesting places with race and sexuality that probably aren't explored often enough.
Also, no, the highlander book they've got in the show (I think the actual title is Outlander) has nothing to do with the Lambert movie (which I love, by the way). The book is porn (or erotica, or whatever you wanna call it). It's about a woman who travels back in time, and spends a million tedious chapters rooting a big burly Scotsman. Coincidentally, I think the only good porn I ever read was more like the Lambert Highlander film; i.e. silly enough to be humourous. To be honest, I think that's the only book I've noticed on the show. At least, it's the only one I've heard the characters openly discuss.
38 comments :
I can wait, and am excited to discuss both. Until then...
I figure I'll do this in the comments, so if I get ahead of you, it'll be easy for you to stop reading.
EPISODE ONE:
I started off very disappointed with the idea that all the old characters were being turfed out to bring in a whole new cast. Chapman was the character I found least interesting in season 1. Plus, it would mean leaving a bunch of plot threads hanging. Since it looks like that's not happening, I think starting with a new location and new characters is a good thing.
Thankfully, Larry and the brother weren't in this episode. They annoyed me last time.
I also realised there's a lot I don't remember from last season. Did we see Chapman as a kid? Was it the same actress? I don't remember this kid. What happened to Chapman's mates at the end of last season? The girl who was saving herself for her boyfriend? Her lover? Janeway/Red?
The outcome with Chapman and Alex's testimonies -- I saw that coming as soon as they started discussing it in the van, but I'm still interested to see what it will mean long term.
On to episode 2.
EPISODE 2:
Brilliant. Loved it. So much came flooding back once I started seeing all the old faces again. By the end, I was thinking that if I had to pick, I'd rather see a show about these people than have a show about Chapman and Alex without them in it. It's going to be hard letting any of them go, which will no doubt be inevitable. Good. That's as it should be.
Larry wasn't super annoying; however, a) Did that baby look three months old? and b) Did best friend look like someone with a three-month-old? Maybe I'm just cynical.
Now, do I do another before bed? It's tempting.
Woo hoo. We watched another tonight, after GoT, so we have 3 down. Will come back tomorrow for comments...
EPISODE 3:
I really appreciated the intro this time around. After seeing all the old characters again in the last episode, after missing them in the first. I feel a connection to all those eyes and mouths now.
I don't know what to say about this one. If I was going to talk about what I liked about it, I'd just be describing the whole episode. It was consistently good. I did like seeing Crazy Eyes as a kid. Also how good are the kid actors they're getting in? And the likenesses? I especially liked the young Taystee in the previous episode.
Speaking of the previous episode, did I ever mention the sheila I knew who taught her dog the peanut-butter trick in real life? I did, didn't I?
Chapman might start to grow on me if she keeps going the way she's going. I'm interested to see what happens with her and Alex, and her and Doggett. If Doggett's gang turn on her, could she and Chapman end up as bedfellows? (not literally, I don't think)
Also, Soso: continuing character, or plot device? And where are things going with the female guard? I see potential with her. Something to do with Larry and the journalist, maybe?
EPISODE 4:
Probably my favourite so far. I liked Morello's back story, but wished there was more with Lorna at the hospital. The Brooke/Boo thing was the least interesting part of it, for me, but I suppose it was worth it to so Chapman twist and harden just a little bit more. Maybe I'll really start to like her at some point.
I'm actually enjoying the relationship developing between Larry and best friend girl.
What was the story with Janeway's mate getting burned? I feel like it's something I should remember from last season, but I'm drawing a blank.
And I couldn't help but roll my eyes at the female anatomy subplot. I suppose though, that there are a lot of people who never learn that stuff. It's probably worse in the bible-thumping U.S. than it is here, too.
EPISODE 5:
So, last season I got a bit of a vibe about female inmates versus the predatory male correctional workers. Now, I think they're shifting the dynamic a bit, by positioning Fig as the apex villain. So far, she seems like a very un-complex character. All the boxes ticked for someone we should hate. I don't know how I feel about her yet. I'm interested to see if and how they flesh her out.
Also, the fuck-off between Nichols and Boo. Does it seem like a particularly, I dunno, "blokey" thing to do? I mean, "blokey" as in, more how you'd write male characters? I dunno. Does it feel like there's a bit of a shift in the underpinnings of the structure here? Ah, fucked if I know. Maybe I'm imagining things.
It was still good.
What's going to happen to Chapman on the outside? I hope they don't undo what's been building this season. Not now. It's too early. And she shouldn't just go back to what she was, either way.
We watched Ep 4 tonight (and 5 I think, losing track.) I also liked Morello's back story. Well done. I also reckon something's going to happen with Larry and Polly (hah, ONE name I remember. I can't believe how good you are at remembering all the names.) I thought the female anatomy thing was good because *lots* of girls/women don't know it, they really don't, and because I'd never seen that talked about on a show or in public in that way (other than in our sex ed classes) I was almost cheering. Oh fuck, I was cheering.
Janeway? That's Red? She set the kitchen on fire something to do with something last season. Yeah, I don't remember much either.
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EP 3: Agree about the child actors, they are so good and so like the characters. Seeing Suzanne's backstory, so sad. Man. The peanut butter trick, you may have mentioned it but I've heard about it before. I'm just glad they didn't show that and that Boo decided not to go there. I couldn't understand why she had a dog in there in the first place. Soso I don't know. I think she's just meant to be a Chapman type, ie newbie, there have been a few symmetrical things going on. The female guard, the young one or the old one?
Who's Doggett?
EPS 1 and 2. With one we were kind of shrieking going 'what the fuck's happening!' I just loved it. So disorientating but at the back of my mind I was missing the others. So when Ep 2 we were back with them I was really relieved. Like you said, so many faces and stories. LOVE IT.
The baby didn't look 3 months old but in Ep 4 she told the lady on the street it was 10 weeks. Ok, I guess that's almost 3 months. I dunno.
I saw Alex was going to betray Chapman as well, saw it coming a mile off and I thought it was good they did that. Nice double twist cause you think Chapman is going to tell the truth. But what a cow. Wow.
I love the way Chapman has hardened and she wasn't scared of Red when she was forced to move into her room. Do not like Tastee's 'foster' mum - talk about bad news and it's strange but she just hasn't aged, in fact she looks like she's gotten younger. Don't want her to fuck up Suzanne. I love Suzanne.
We seem to be watching a couple of eps every night.
I find it disturbing that in a country like this, in this day and age, that many women would go through life not knowing basic things about their own bodies. You do valuable work, my friend.
Wasn't Boo's dog a guide-dog puppy or something? They don't start training them 'til they're a year or something, but they still need constant companionship so they get used to being totally bonded to a person. Or something. I don't remember exactly how it goes. Maybe it was some other sort of helper dog or something.
Yes, Janeway is Red's character from Star Trek. I'm just so used to thinking of her like that. Now that you've jogged my memory, I vaguely remember her sabotaging the kitchen when the latinas took over.
Maybe Soso's primary function at the moment is to show us how far Chapman has come. But I feel she's going to be important later on when she also hardens up. Either at the end of this season or further down the track.
The younger female officer (Fischer?) is the one whom I think will be the most crucial to the plot. And it looks like Cabuto is being repositioned as a more sympathetic character. The older woman and the fat bloke, I'd be surprised if they get substantially utilised any time soon.
Doggett is the one with new teeth, whom Chapman fought at the end of last season. Although, she seems to be getting called "Pensatucky" now. I think it was one of my predictions from last season that Doggett's gang would turn on her after she lost, and she would either have a final showdown with Chapman or they would form some sort of bond. So far, so good.
I think Vee is shaping up to be the new big-bad inmate. But she will be a completely different foe to Doggett. Much more cerebral and cunning instead of batshit insane. And she won't just be Chapman's problem. Now that we care so much about all the characters, the stakes are much higher. There'll need to be a price. I think it might be Red. And yes, it seems they completely gave up on trying to age her realistically.
I didn't think Chapman would tell the truth in court. That one played out exactly like I thought it would. What will be interesting is seeing their next meeting. On the outside? Will Alex come to visit? I can't see them leaving her out of the show for too long.
I have been managing 3 episodes a night, but I have rellies arriving tomorrow and staying for nearly a week. That might slow things down considerably.
I think it's a sign of good story-telling when you can feel many different things, both positive and negative, for the same character at the same time. Cabuto, Doggett and Healy, Larry and Polly.
I think Poussey is probably the best acted character. The performance seems very natural and sincere to me.
I hope something substantial grows between Morello and Suzanne. They deserve each other. Though Vee would obviously not be happy about it.
Red's plan can only result in her leaving the show. I can't see how she won't end up in Maximum security.
What have I missed between Morello and Suzanne? Suzanne is Crazy Eye right? And Morello is the stalky veil wearer, right?
Poussey is great, really feel for her.
Ah Doggett, yes my daughter reckons she'll team up with or try to be friends with Chapman and her friends. She's so funny the way she's smiling all the time. What a great character, and the actress, I saw her in 8 Mile (Eminem movie) - you should watch it if you haven't. It's really good and she is good in it. Talk about a transformation...
Yes, Boo's dog was a trainee guide dog or something but why was she allowed to have him in the prison. To me that was a bit unrealistic.
Yes, Morello and Suzanne are those two. They shared a moment at the Valentine's Day party. I thought (more like hoped, really) it might grow into something more. They both have psych issues that double as a vulnerability and an armour.
As for Boo and the dog; by coincidence, I was watching Landline or something on NITV or something a couple of weeks ago, and they had a story on an eagle breeding (or recovery (don't remember the details)) program that was running through one of the prisons here in AUS. The scientist/wildlife-worker in charge was happy because the inmates didn't need to be paid and the inmates were happy because it gave them something productive to do. I think some local film-maker had just made a movie or something about it too; no doubt full of symbolism about leaving a cage and flying free. I've heard about those sorts of things before, so it didn't strike me as too unrealistic. It is a low security prison, after all.
I'll keep 8 Mile on my radar. I've been in a room when it was on the telly but didn't really watch it. I've never cared for Eminem, so didn't give it much of a chance. That was a long time ago, though.
You might be an episode ahead of us. I don't remember the Valentine's Day party...
I rate Eminem. I think he's a genius actually and an interesting person. Really loved the movie.
I had a look back at our old OITNB discussion, over at your joint. I couldn't find the Doggett predictions, so I either made them elsewhere, or didn't make them at all. Actual predictions were:
• Chapman hardens up considerably.
• Chapman takes a newbie under her wing.
• Chapman gets her sentence extended, and/or goes to maximum security.
• Prison bureaucracy becomes more of a factor.
• Main characters get bumped off. My money says Doggit, Red, Morello and Alex are prime candidates. Of course, it might also depend on which actors decide they want to leave the show.
Well, Chapman has hardened up and she did sort of take on a newbie, though to a much lesser extent than what I'd imagined. Alex hasn't been bumped off, but she has been largely written out of the first half. At this point, I still see something bad happening to Red.
Looking back, I also realise how much it added having Jo's contribution to the discussion. Maybe it would've been better to do this at yours?
I can start a thread there, not sure if she's watching or knows it's on. Did I announce that on mine or yours?
I do remember you saying your thoughts about Chapman hardening up and taking on a newbie. Maybe it's elsewhere on another post. It worries me that you think bad things are coming for Red. I really feel for her and like her and am rooting for her.
And yes the max security. Somehow I don't think that's the last time we see those dude including that sleazy black guy. What was the line Chapman said? When they were 'negotiating' him getting a note to Alex? Where she offered a hand job and he said he preferred to be more active than that, or something. And she said something like: I don't think there's enough privacy here for you to sexually assault me' or something. Do you remember that?
I don't think we've even mentioned the new series at your place. We could either move the discussion there, or let her know we're discussing it here. Either way. Assuming she's interested.
I like Red too, but I have a feeling about her story arc moving towards something conclusive. Maybe she will go to max and then come back in a later season. Her relationship with her sons makes me smile. If she goes, I will miss her.
I remember Chapman offering to wank that bloke off and he says something like "I'm a predator, it's no fun for me if you offer." and yes, she snaps back with something like "Well, I don't think there's enough privacy here for you to violently assault me." Foreshadowing, maybe?
Actually, remember that Chapman's last roomie (the voodoo woman, Ms or Madam something) was sent to max. If Red goes to max, there might be a thing about nobody wanting to be bunked with her because it's a trend?
Maybe we'll get a parallel storyline about Red and the voodoo woman in max?
EPISODE 7:
I think the discussion on grammar was my favourite bit.
And the humanising of Fig, so soon. Did not see that one coming.
Poor old Jimmy.
I think the Sun vs Moon convo was really well written. Was that this episode?
Really enjoyed Rosa's story.
I knew by the way they were building up the furlough, that something would go wrong. What they did was probably the best option in the end.
The scene with Fischer and Nichols was good too. Maybe I was completely wrong about Fischer. But then, why bother with all the set-up of her listening to the phone calls in Spanish and learning about the pregnancy? It seems like a weird fucking place to leave that.
But then, with the return of Pornstache, who knows what direction this is going? I'm actually not too glad to see him back. I think I had just the right amount of him last time. Was happy to see him go.
Ok we watched Ep 6 tonight, the Valentine's Day one, so I can't read your other comments. Will catch up over weekend I reckon. I'm out tomorrow night. And P is out Sat night. So might be a while actually. And then final GoT on Monday night, I am so obsessed with it.
Episode 6 was interesting. Yes, I thought Suzanne was so sweet with Morello. And I really felt for Poussey what a storyline. Great father though, good on him. I wonder what she ended up doing to get in prison. Such a surprise to see her speaking German, pretty amazing. I swear, the show is really surprising in lots of ways. And the dude with the Russian wife, I'm feeling sorry for him again now, even though he was such a prick towards end of last season. Can't stand Vee and what she's playing at. Funny seeing all the guards at the bar, the way they were reacting to each other in civvies. All very compelling.
EPISODE 9:
Very interesting episode.
Chapman is really growing on me. I even liked her brother in this one.
All of a sudden Red's future doesn't seem so bleak to me. I see new potential. But that tunnel has to be discovered sooner or later, and someone will have to take the fall for it. Will it end up being Vee? That'd be fitting, given what we saw this episode. Maybe she'll end up reunited with Rhonda. Maybe she's just in the show for this season. I wonder.
Pornstache's role may have shifted a little. Good. I didn't really want more of the same.
What are the chances of Healy and Doggett's relationship turning into an affair?
EPISODE 10:
I think I'd like to see more of Gina (the burned one). She needs some development.
At this point, I'm realising that they could kill Alex off at some point and still keep her as a main character in flashbacks.
Nichols does a pretty good Alex impression, too, no?
And the Pornstache/Dia/Hoppy triangle; brilliantly done. Amazed that I was happy to see him go, sad to see him return, and in just a couple of episodes, I don't want to lose him again. He's still a bad guy, but now he's a bad guy with new interesting dimensions. Hat's off to the story-teller.
And speaking of bad, what was your reaction to Crazy Eyes' heel turn?
And when you say you don't like Vee, you mean you don't like how she behaves, or you don't even like her as an antagonist? I think she's a pretty good villain. I find myself trying to work out at what points I would have let her get to me and just started swinging. I just wouldn't have gotten pissed first.
And since the previous episode, I find myself feeling something of an affinity for the Golden Girls now. I sort of imagine that they would maybe almost be like us if we were in prison. Hmmm, maybe there's an idea for a sketch in there somewhere...
EPISODE 11:
You notice the cartoon panels read left to right but the dialogue reads right to left?
Poussey is pretty awesome. Or rather, the actress is. Or both.
Am I supposed to feel some sort of kinship with Pete the Aussie? 'cause I don't. Fuck 'im.
Menses Madness!!! Wonder if I can use that?
Golden Girls are pretty hardcore, eh?
You reckon the prison transfer's going ahead? twelve other girls? Is that most of the main cast?
EPISODE 12:
Well, how are they going to wrap all this up in one episode.
You reckon something will happen to put the kibosh on the transfer. Wouldn't it be good to see Fig as an inmate? It's almost like we're seeing her origin story play out in real time, eh?
I reckon Doggett had the best scenes in this one. Discovering and joining the lesbian conspiracy. Her appraisal of men made me laugh. "I like how they smell funky, and they're all big and have dicks and stuff."
And Red. I had that feeling of foreboding since the end of last season and it had almost completely gone away. And then ...
God I've just scrolled down here without looking. We haven't watched any more so you are getting really ahead. Sorry! Will catch up soon.
Plus last GoT tomorrow night so you will have that to catch up as well.
EPISODE 13:
Fantastic fucking ending. I'd really taken a liking to Rosa, and this gave me great satisfaction.
I'm happy to be wrong about Red.
Will Cabuto keep the top job? Will he be become as bad as Fig? Will he be desperately sucking someone's knob in two season's time?
I'm eager to hear all your thoughts on the series.
*SPOILER FREE*
MELBS!
HEY, JUST POSTED WITHOUT SEEING YOURS.
THE ENDING IS EXCELLENT! DO NOT DELAY IN WATCHING!
*BACK TO SPOILERS*
I had to rewind and watch the last 10 minutes a second time.
And then a third.
It builds so nicely, and I love that little transition to old Rosa at the end.
It's funny to feel so good about someone who just murdered someone for being rude, eh?
Only just realised that last episode was an hour and a half. It really flew.
I can't stop talking about it. And I can't stop going back and watching it.
We've got a serial bank robber who's just escaped from gaol, and she's speeding away, presumably to die in a police chase, after just killing someone for doing something to her that was relatively minor; and I feel so good about it.
I love the way stories can do that, eh?
One more thing before I go to bed --
That Highlander book that Taystee had; I've read it. Fuckin' crap.
'cause, I wasn't a young woman in prison when I read it. So, maybe it speaks to a certain audience.
EP 7
I think the discussion on grammar was my favourite bit.
I don’t remember that. I miss so much of the dialogue, which is why I need to watch things with subtitles. Will rewatch S1 and S2 on DVD to catch up in that regards
The humanizing of Fig, yes did not see that coming either. Nicely done. And what was the line when she unzipped Caputo and saw his dick and he says something like ‘yeah, they called me Coke can in high school’ – a choad I guess? Yuck.
Sun vs Moon convo? Don’t remember.
Me too on Rosa’s story
Agree re furlough. It was well done.
When Pornstache walked in I was shouting, i found it really dramatic and wow. But Im glad he’s gone quickly cause I agree with you, I did have my fill of him last season.
EP 9
Is this when she had her furlough? I really enjoyed those scenes. Out of the prison.
Which one is Rhonda?
Your question re Healy and Doggett: I had similar queasy thought myself. I just don’t trust him after he betrayed Chapman end of last season. Even though I feel sorry for him and have empathy for him with the Safe Talk scenes etc, but there’s a later scene where Doggett touches him and he gets very scary, I was expecting her to hug him (cause she was being sweet and sincere and supportive) and for him to belt her. I was scared for her. Doggett has become a much more empathetic character this season, which is interesting.
EP 10
On killing Alex off, possibly, but I suspect (now that I’ve finished the whole season) something else on that. I’ll put it in last comment
Pornstache/Dia/Hoppy – yes, really well done, I do hope P is back but just a little. But in some kind of mental way
Crazy Eyes’ ‘heel turn’ she’s just completely manipulated by Vee which plays out over next few eps
Vee is an excellent antagonist but I suppose i didn’t like her changing everything (I know there has to be change, and conflict and the best way of doing that was have the set up in Season one and then we are comfortable with the characters and like most of them, then have someone come in and fuck everyone over.) Also I found her an awful person (which means good character building) and there’s one scene coming up which was particularly reprehensible. I suppose she was a villain through and through, absolutely no redeeming features (which in a way is unrealistic, intellectually I have to think that even the worst people have some things to recommend them? It’s a big statement and a big question. Something I’m still trying to work out. I just don’t think good/bad is a really binary thing. I’m sure we’ve talked about this before?)
With Vee, I would have been completely intimidated. In prison, I would need a wife for sure. I’d probably be unable to fight off Boo, assuming of course she’d be interested in me!)
Yes the Golden Girls. I’d be the one with the long grey hair who does something pretty rad in an upcoming episode. When you say sketch do you mean drawing? Can you do one of me??
EP 11
What? about cartoon panels, what?
Poussey is fucking awesome, or the actress is, or both.
Pete the Aussie, far out. He’s like a joke character, they are laughing at us.
Menses madness – missed that. I already use it, though not in those terms. I get rage occasionally and there is a type of insanity that manifests with me being hypercritical of people closest to me (read Clokes and his kids, my mother, my sister) and sometimes wanting to shout and hit.
Yes golden girls pretty hardcore, liked that. everyone treats them like they are invisible and nothing, but people forget that older people have lived. I am noticing a lot of ageism as I get older. There’s the invisibility, the talk about old equating it with bad. I reckon old is awesome but unfortunately the only way young people will get it is once they are old and the cycle continues
If I’d answered this before knowing what happens, I would have said prison transfer might happen, and they split the cast and start new elsewhere. But now I know it’s not happening. It was just a threat thrown in. To confirm: it was about the magazine Chapman was putting out? Was it everyone working on it with her that was on the transfer list?
Ep 12
I knew once Red didn’t kill Vee that she would get hit back. I thought she would get killed, thankfully she didn’t. What do you think about the actress who plays, Red I think she’s amazing looking. I love the way she does her hair and makeup, esp eye makeup. I’m gonna play around with some eye lines like she does.
I missed a lot of the Doggett dialogue, my daughter had to keep pausing and translating for me. Poor kid. Especially when it was all the innuendo about going down on women etc.
Ep13
Fucking amazing last episode. It was really really great. Agree with you about Rosa, I really came to care about her, kept worrying she’d die on us. During the sleepover in the storm, in the back of the van etc. And yes, swerving to get Vee we cheered (although I’d been worried about the nuns at the gate. Loved the nun bits too, also the sister telling Red she masturbated to a picture of Christ ‘who was pretty ripped, he was my go-to guy’ also Red talking about sex. This show has really gone to places other shows haven’t, to dismantle stereotypes, don’t you think? But not in a simplistic or tokenistic way. Showing older women talking about sex, showing lesbian love and not just sex but a real connection between Alex and Chapman.
See, this is what I think: now that Larry has been a douche as has the best friend Polly (?) Chapman and Alex I think are the real deal. My daughter says she reckons Chapman was only with Larry to be ‘doing the conventional thing’ that really she is gay and really she loved Alex. Her feelings for her had to be strong enough to make her cheat on Larry, also to lie for her in court. Either Alex will end back in prison or next season will be about the threats to her on the outside and being drawn back into the drug world.
I think Nicky and the heroin will be an ongoing temptation for her. I was so worried she’d crack but then she told Red. It’s always going to be there for her, as a temptation. The way she talked about it during that AA-type scene. So poetically and lovingly.
The other thing I love about this show is the racial stuff and that they go there. I can’t think of another show (which also has white lead characters) that will have scenes, extended and integral scenes, of black women talking to each other about stuff other than men (are you familiar with the Bechdel test? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test) I have seen articles though that are critical, and asking questions like ‘Is OITNB racist?’ I didn’t read them cause didn’t want spoilers but will look up and put links here. What do you think? I have to say there’ve been a couple of times when all the black girls are talking in their ‘jivey way’ (sorry for dated and possibly offensive term) and it’s like they are not being very smart. It’s like Vee is the ‘smart’ one and they are vulnerable to exploitation and manipulation because they are dumb. Apart from Poussey, but we’ve seen her background. Middle class, educated, strong father figure etc etc. She was the only one to stand up to Vee and got outcast for it, but apart from her the others all seem not too cluey. Now this could be a comment on the types who get into crime and go to prison, and there are plenty of other groups there, and it’s clear that in the US blacks are overrepresented in prisons. What do you think about that?
I was also moved by the way the guy with the face tatts, visiting one of the kitchen women with their child, was smiling and happy when she wasn’t being transferred. He hadn’t smiled once during their visits, in fact I thought he was going to attack her or do something to the kid he seemed so violently unhappy and tense.
Was the Highlander book the same one as the movie, with Christopher Lambert? I really liked the movie when I saw it in the ‘80s. It does not hold up however.
There’s also an article floating around about books in OITNB. I’m not sure whether it’s realistic or not to have people reading so much in prison but maybe it is. It would be the best way of escaping I reckon. I’ll try to find that article as well.
To finish, I worry for Suzanne. We were made to care about her, and she is so fragile and vulnerable. Fucking Vee for using her like that. Oh, and I forgot to mention the scene that I found the most horrible: Vee's seduction of the man she'd raised as her son (and used in a Dickensian way in her bad dealings) and then her easy betrayal of him. So of course, using Crazy Eyes was easy for her. Glad she got smashed by Rosa in the van. Fucking bitch.
Here are some links to articles:
http://unprison.com/2013/08/14/a-former-prisoners-view-orange-is-the-new-black/
http://www.salon.com/2013/08/22/the_bar_for_tv_diversity_is_way_too_low/
and a response:
http://maxwellsdemoniac.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/a-hymn-to-taystee-on-racist-stereotypes-in-orange-is-the-new-black/
also the article on books in the show:
http://www.vulture.com/2014/06/books-of-orange-is-the-new-black-guide.html
plus a tumblr
http://booksofoitnb.tumblr.com/
Sorry it took me so long to catch up with the comments, we finished watching it last night. I'll go back and rewatch first 2 seasons before next one. Pretty sure there's lots more in this show than I see the first or even second time.
EP 7:
The grammar discussion was when Daya and Flaca were arguing over the phrase "I could care less".
I know what you mean about subtitles. I have them on for just about anything I can get them for now. I think part of the problem is that these days, they mix audio with the assumption that everyone has an insulated private theatre with a kick-arse surround sound system they can crank up without the neighbours showing up with torches and pitchforks. Most annoying.
If I remember right, Caputo says his nickname was "beer can". You know, I've heard the term "choad" on American shows, but I still don't know what it means. Care to enlighten, please?
The sun/moon thing was when Chapman told Larry that he was reflecting other people's light, like the moon; and he replied that it was natural she thought that, because she sees herself as the sun at the centre of the universe with everyone else orbiting around her. I thought it was a beautifully descriptive metaphor.
EP 9:
Yes, the furlough was the start of me really growing fond of Chapman's brother and his missus. Up until that time, I just found them annoying. Chapman herself really grew on me here, too. We start to see that she's already too far gone to ever go back to "how things were".
I wonder what'll become of that loose end with Chapman lying to Red about the family business?
In the flashbacks, Rhonda was the one that Vee betrayed and had sent to maximum security so that she could take over the blacks. I thought Vee might end up in max herself, and Rhonda would be there to greet her.
After what happened at the end of season 1, I guessed that they would either have Doggett go full feral and then finish up with her permanently, or reform her into an sympathetic character. I'm glad they did what they did. I think it's been far more interesting. But Healy is miserable at home and work, and he has precisely one person in his life showing him affection, and we all know what he's capable of. I think at some point there's going to be a final straw for Healy. Maybe his wife will get her green card and leave him. Depending on where things are positioned at that time, things could go quite badly for Doggett. Especially if they start something and then she tries to blackmail him.
EP 10:
Pornstache/Dia/Hoppy – yes, really well done, I do hope P is back but just a little. But in some kind of mental way
In this context, "P" is Pornstache, right? If so, yes, agreed.
I don't see Boo as being that threatening. She's big enough that no-one fucks with her, but I don't often see her using it to intimidate others. Although ... did she menace Chapman early in season 1? It's like there's something on the tip of my memory ... I can't believe how much I've forgotten.
I think Vee was a psychopath; and if that's the case, it's not a matter of good or evil, but a simple, clinical, lack of empathy. And while I don't think that it's so much unrealistic, per see, I suppose the question is whether a character like that adds to this type of human drama, or if it comes of as simplistic and ham-handed. Maybe it's a matter of execution over content?
Yes, I had a thought about doing a drawing of you and me as characters, but it's not much of a clique with just two. And I'd need reference picks. And then there's the fact that I haven't actually drawn anything in months. Which sucks.
EP 11:
Daya's little cartoon strip she did for the prison newsletter, the dialogue balloons are ordered right-to-left for no reason at all that I can see.
I think you're right about Pete being a joke character. I suppose his one redeeming feature is that he's not a yank doing a crap Aussie accent (as far as I can tell). Do you reckon there's more Aussie characters in American stuff now? Is it because there's so many high-profile Aussie actors around? I can remember when we were desperately trying to claim Russel Crowe and Lucy Lawless as our own. That reminds me, I recently heard that Xena is in some show about the Roman Empire that started out apeing GoT, but is now very decent in its own right. Have you seen or heard of it? I might check it out later in the year, when I feel like watching telly again.
I don't know if it's a type of reverse-ageism, but I find myself getting more cynical and gruff around younger people as I get older. Especially when they're like, "Oh, such-and-such is the most talented musician in the history of the world!", and three years later it's like they never fuckin' existed; or when they talk about discovering things from the fuckin' 1990s like they were uncovering some sort of fossilised artifacts from a prehistoric era. Yes, people don't realise that older folks have lived, and have a much broader perspective of history, but they also seem to be ignorant of their own ignorance -- which is probably the most frustrating part of it. And then there's the entertainment/fashion industry, which just seems to be this little insulating bubble, built around and on top of that ignorance. Fuck, I'm starting to rant now ... hmmm ... menses madness!!
I think the transfer was because Fig found out Chapman was getting visits from that reporter, and the others were on the list randomly, because she didn't want it too look like she was singling Chapman out. I don't think we ever find out who most of the others on the list even were. In the end, it didn't matter.
EP 12:
What do you think about the actress who plays Red?
Captain Janeway? I like her as an actress, even though I don't think her Rusky accent is 100% convincing. To start with, I was quite taken aback by how much she'd aged/gained weight since Star Trek, but I'm used to it now. I would have been sad to see her go, even though I think it could have been a powerful story element if they'd bumped her off. To be honest, I hadn't give a tremendous amount of thought to her makeup, but now that you mention it ... I don't wear any myself. My mother put me off it when I was a kid and I never recovered. But if you reckon you can do something with it, I say go for it.
The Doggett exchanges, both with Healy and Boo were great. I'd be tempted to go back and re-watch just for them, if you missed them.
Ep 13:
Yes, I think Chapman probably did really love Alex, but I'm not so sure about how reciprocal it was. Which is to say, I'm not sure Alex is capable of loving someone in that way. She seems really selfish and manipulative to me. Maybe that's why it will work out, what with Chapman also being so self-centred and narcissistic; but honestly, I don't see any "proper" relationship forming between them that isn't based around travel and adventure. And how that's going to happen without drug money, I don't know.
And as for cheating on Larry, if I remember correctly, that happened after Chapman was traumatised by her time in SHU, so I don't know to what degree "strong feelings" were a factor there.
I am very familiar with the Bechdel Test, although, until I looked it up, I wouldn't have been able to tell you what it was called. You're right though, that I probably haven't seen too many shows that mix black and white main characters in the way they're mixed here.
I read those articles thinking they would all be about how racist the depictions of ethnic stereotypes in the show are, and blah-de-blah, intellectual outrage, etc, etc; but they weren't really. So, I don't really know how to respond to the articles, but I'll try responding to your questions instead:
What do you think? I have to say there’ve been a couple of times when all the black girls are talking in their ‘jivey way’ (sorry for dated and possibly offensive term) and it’s like they are not being very smart. It’s like Vee is the ‘smart’ one and they are vulnerable to exploitation and manipulation because they are dumb. Apart from Poussey, but we’ve seen her background. Middle class, educated, strong father figure etc etc. She was the only one to stand up to Vee and got outcast for it, but apart from her the others all seem not too cluey.
To start with, I think there might be an element of cultural perspective here. When the black girls are doing their "jivey talk", they're often loud and animated, and maybe sometimes there's a tendency to equate that with being stupid and juvenile. I've got a big family that spans a few cultural backgrounds, as well as educational and economic levels (yes, all the way from dirt poor to working class); and I know that when I'm with different groups of rellies, the way people talk varies quite a bit. And while that can represent a difference in the level of education, it doesn't always, and, while being uneducated does often makes people ignorant about certain things, it doesn't necessarily make them dumb.
to be continued ...
So, my first question would be: Are they inexplicably dumber than other characters on the show? Obviously, you can't count Suzanne, because she's got mental health issues. I'd say that Cindy seems a bit thick, and, well, a bit of a cunt too really. So that leaves Poussey, Taystee, and Watson, whom I would argue have all been depicted as quite intelligent. Taystee obviously has long standing issues with Vee as a mother figure and with an uncontrollable desire to be accepted. We also see that Watson's experiences (including multiple trips to SHU) appear to be making her bitter and fatalistic (Again, the first thing Chapman did after going to SHU was fuck a woman whom she was still upset with for fingering her to authorities). You've already mentioned Poussey, and I think Vee explicitly made an example of her to keep Watson and Taystee in line. And of course, neither of them have the knowledge we do as the audience. So, you've got these two girls who are chuffed to be in the group at the top of the heap, afraid to rock the boat because they've seen what can happen, and they're talking in their jivey way, and Cindy is legitimately saying dumb shit and Crazy Eyes is being Crazy Eyes, and maybe a part of you is expecting to see black characters written poorly, and maybe that all adds up to something ...? Or maybe there is actually something more there and I just missed it.
On the other hand, I would argue that the characters who seem the dumbest are the hick meth girls, who are all white. Also, Morello doesn't seem that bright to me, but then she's comparatively quiet, so maybe that works in her favour. Boo is cunning, but I don't know if that equates to intelligent. At any rate, she doesn't seem to be much of a long-term thinker. Sometimes I question the intelligence of Chapman and her friends and family on the outside, despite the fact that they're all obviously well educated. Don't get me started on fuckin' Aussie Pete.
Interestingly, all those articles seemed to share my general dislike of Chapman in season 1, and one of them talked about how you can't sell a show idea without having a "pretty", "white", "middle-class" "normal" as a vehicle for the audience. And this got me thinking. There's now more non-whites in The States than whites, and the fucking atrocious economic policies they have are causing a collapse in the economic strata; so, is it just a matter of time until we see a change in story conventions, based purely on audience demographics? Of course, most of the writers, executives, etc will probably remain wealthy, white, Christians/Jews, but at the end of the day, they've got to make something that appeals to the masses, right?
But yes, I agree that the show has gone to some interesting places with race and sexuality that probably aren't explored often enough.
Also, no, the highlander book they've got in the show (I think the actual title is Outlander) has nothing to do with the Lambert movie (which I love, by the way). The book is porn (or erotica, or whatever you wanna call it). It's about a woman who travels back in time, and spends a million tedious chapters rooting a big burly Scotsman. Coincidentally, I think the only good porn I ever read was more like the Lambert Highlander film; i.e. silly enough to be humourous. To be honest, I think that's the only book I've noticed on the show. At least, it's the only one I've heard the characters openly discuss.
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